Feedback – It’s a Matter of Authority & Credibility
By Scott Bourne
I guess it’s time for another rant that’s sure to get me in trouble with the cool kids, but I have a point to make that will be important to the emerging professional photographers.
I just got off the phone with a young woman who’s trying to break into the wedding market on the East Coast of the USA. I have to admit this call got me fired up. She got involved with an online camera club and showed some of her work to the “Uncle Harry’s” in their forum. They tore her apart. She was sobbing. I looked at her work. It’s far from perfect, but it’s also far from horrible. I looked into this camera club and found out they do most of their “critiques” online. They often use fake names and they are usually brutal and even mean when they do their thing. I looked at the portfolios of many of these people and my first thought was – “Who are you to critique someone else’s work? Your work blows!” (Okay I usually wouldn’t say BLOWS but the kids who work for me say that all the time and it’s rubbing off on me.)
The people who attacked (not critiqued) my new friend had, in my opinion, no standing to grade a wedding photographer’s work. Most were hobbyists with little actual working experience and none were wedding or even portrait photographers. So what makes them think their opinion matters?
When it comes to criticism, the Internet has helped provide an abundance of opportunity to getting feedback on your photography. Unfortunately, not all feedback is valuable. In fact, based on what I’ve seen in many of the photo forums, little of the feedback you get online is valuable.
For some reason, people who use the Internet think that by virtue of the existence of a comment box, THEIR comment matters. Big boy pants time – not necessarily.
If you want to comment on my photography, and you’re Art Wolfe, I’ll gladly listen to what you have to say. You see Art Wolfe has the standing to criticize my work. He has the credibility and the authority to give me advice that I care about. Now, let’s take feedback from some anonymous guy using the handle “StarWars109.” In the case of Mr. Wars, I really couldn’t possibly care less what he thinks of my work. By virtue of the fact that he hides behind an assumed name, I immediately don’t care what he says. If you’re not willing to own up to your opinions, then there’s no reason at all NONE – for me to spend time considering them.
I have no right to give an opinion on what makes a great brain surgery because – wait for it, I am not a brain surgeon. When you receive criticism from “The Internets” consider the source. If the person commenting on your photo, good or bad, has no standing, no experience, no credibility, no authority, a lousy portfolio and they hide behind a fake name, move on. You’re wasting your time. You’re not going to get anything of value in that situation so don’t subject yourself to the madness.
If you want real, valuable critiques, get them from respected mentors at national trade associations, from teachers and peers who have experience in your genre of photography, from buyers, agents, gallery owners, etc. Their opinions matter. The opinions of anonymous trolls who probably never sold a photo in their lives – not so much!
____
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41 Responses to “Feedback – It’s a Matter of Authority & Credibility”
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As you mention in your last paragraph, about who people should really get critiques from, do you have any suggestions as to the best way to go about doing that? I’m assuming most of these kinds of people are not easily accessible and/or just don’t have a whole lot of spare time to offer advice.
Thanks
Amen. The other way the situation can be summed up is the difference between constructive criticism and just plain criticism. It doesn’t take much talent, insight, or guts to look at something and simply say “That sucks” (even if it actually does). The way to promote learning, improve a body of work, and have the result a critique is actually meant to have is to give reasons for every comment and suggestions towards improvement, and it works both ways. The simple response of “I like it” is just as uninformative from a critique standpoint, it simply has the benefit of being nicer.
Great blog. I learned from a photographer who works full time professionally as a photographer and I learned information that was so much more valuable than anything I’ve ever learned online. Therefore, your advice is spot on with what I’ve experienced!
Very well said, Scott. While providing a means for displaying work, the internet also provides a forum for people to anonymously say anything they want. I’m sure most of these people would never say such hateful things in person, when they had to accept responsibility for their words.
This blog piece was right on time. I was just reading a somewhat similar piece in David duChemin’s book about getting critiques and mentoring. As I start to make my inroads into photography full time, I rely on your sage advice. There are far too many people out there ready to give unchallenged and inexperienced opinions. And for what? Constructive criticism is a valuable tool. Tearing people down offers no value, and can possibly discourage a really talented person from pursuing a dream and honing a gift.
Thanks!
if you’re looking for community critique on the web, i think it’s imperative that you become an active participant in that community / forum.
this will 1) allow you to see if it’s a group you WANT to associate with & 2) introduce you to the regulars – who might come to your aid / redirect the tone quicker than if a stranger simply shows up one day asking for critique.
there are trolls everywhere – art schools are no exception – it’s an aspect of the creative industry that can be mitigated but not avoided. some of those trolls go on to become Art Directors, Creative Directors, CEOs and, god forbid, Marketing Department admins – and there’s a good chance one of those guys who can’t find their creative ass with both hands, is going to one day shoot you down … but you, as a creative professional, have to KNOW that your work is solid – and there’s simply no accounting for personal preferences – so his or her OPINION is just that.
Thanks for the article. It’s easy, as an amature photographer, to get excited about your work only to have it torn apart by supposed self-proclaimed “experts” out there. Thanks for putting it in perspective.
I totally agree about the meanness. There are some truly vicious critique groups on Flickr! I get how your friend was torn apart; it’s certainly not very constructive.
At the same time, as a complete hobbyist, I love gathering critiques from other hobbyists and semi-professionals. That can be partially accomplished anonymously online.
On Flickr, for example, you might not know their name, profession or life story but their photostream will serve as a portfolio. If the goal is to help each other grow as photographers and not be petty or nasty, you don’t need to collect a resume or shake hands before asking for a critique.
Brain surgery is hardly comparable as it is not an art. Anything as subjective as art has a right to be critiqued by everyone to whom it’s displayed.
Any feedback given should include a praise on something that was done right, something that can be improved, and how to improve it. If you are only giving negative critics, it does not help anyone. Critics are teaching tools that should be used for learning and growth. Everyone has their own eye for what a photograph should be. As long as my customers are happy, then I am happy with my work!
Lynda I have a brain surgeon friend who would very strongly and vocally disagree with your assessment that brain surgery is not an art. As for your decision to welcome anonymous critics, I guess we’ll have to disagree on this one.
Right on Scott. More people need to read this post…the abused and the abusers.
And as for Flickr..Flickr is good for certain things, but for reviews and critiques, I don’t think so….Flickr is just filled with groups and cliques who all always say each other’s work is great (even when it sucks) and so on. I have seen HORRIBLE photos with hundreds of comments proclaiming the ‘wowness’ of that particular photograph. This probably even contributes to the number of people with inflated heads who think they are now expert photographers qualified to judge other people’s work. Who knows..
It is a great place to go and get a few pats on your back from people who probably do not know a whole lot about the ART of photography themselves (I am not claiming to be qualified either, ha) but that is about it when it comes to critiques on Flickr..
@ James S…..Your final line is where it is at…
“Consider the source”! Great advice! Plain and simple. I avoided joining another camera club because I don’t want to have to listen to people go on and on about things they know little or nothing about. Or listen to people talk about HDR like it is the Nirvana to great photographs. One subject that comes up a lot is tripods. I will use a tripod if it is at all possible, providing it doesn’t get in the way. The situation will dictate whether I should use one or not, not because someone doesn’t want to use the effort to carry one!
Great topic Scott, thanks for putting things in perspective!
Good timing, Scott.
I had called up a few people to see what they thought of my work. I think there are a handful of us in the stage of “about to go pro” and we need the encouragement and help to make that jump. Most people have told me areas to improve in.
This specific photographer said that he doesn’t feel I have the hunger nor the passion. He told me I had the minimal amount of skill to make it, but that I would struggle and that I should keep my day job in order to be comfortable in life.
I was devastated.
A good rant Scott, and good to be protective of folks who get too caught up in what other people think (or in this case, what dung other people fling).
But I would also offer a more pragmatic approach — simply take what you want from people’s comments. An anonymous critique on Flickr or JPGmag may actually offer some interesting insight — whether it’s from a rank amateur, a skilled hobbyist, or a working professional.
To instantly disregard someone’s comment because you’ve never heard of them (or even because they’re posting anonymously) is to potentially miss a gem. This is especially true if you’re relatively new to the craft and seeking critiques (as was the case for your new friend).
In the end, throw out the trash and, frankly, throw out the glowing “this is perfect” praise. In between, maybe you get some comments that help, or at least offer a different perspective.
Ultimately, it’s up to the photographer (as with any artist) to decide what work he/she wants to create, what rules to follow/break, and to whom he should listen.
Matt F.
I recommend looking up your local or state PPA (Professional Photographers of America) affiliate and start attending a few meetings (there are other professional level groups too, depending on your style of photography.) Get to know some of the people. There are always people there who are willing to share, teach and give helpful, constructive criticism. Still, you have to get to know people, there are always blowhards in the crowd too, whose opinion should be shrugged off.
Great article! I have been a member of dozens of forums over the years and learned this the hard way. Now I just visit the two that have the best, most well intentioned members.
In addition, not only do the negative comments need to be tempered by the quality of the person commenting, but positive ones too.
Well said, scott! Thanks for the reminder to not be a self-proclaimed expert, and to be careful who I take advice from.
Scott, thank you for reassuring all of us aspiring professionals. I stopped looking to the internet for critiques some months back when I realized that I wasn’t getting any benefit from it–only empty words or condemnation and praise. Now I rely on my former professors and other photographers to critique my work. Your work and your words help all of us every day.
I know it’s debatable about brain surgery being an art and I anticipated that reaction, however… brain surgeons don’t display their work for the whole world to see. If there is an appreciation for their exact performance and how it is achieved, it is within the scientific community only. I love science and think it’s important to art. I don’t want to sell it short, but it’s not the same as music, paintings, photographs and the like.
@Dave thanks for your comments. But asking me to dig through the anonymous crap to find a gem that may or may not be there is like asking me to crawl through a sewer to get a watch an old girlfriend gave me that I never liked. Additionally, I think that anonymous comments have ruined the value of the so-called “Naked Conversation” that Robert Scoble wrote about years ago. Perhaps it’s a generational thing. If someone is anonymous, I completely disregard everything they say.
I absolutely LOVE it how you guys KEEP IT REAL! Thank you!
Phenomenal article. Love your posts!
Let me play devil’s advocate here for just a bit: In 2004 I went to a weekend photo workshop in Smoky Mountain National Park with a nationally known photographer who had just had a photo on the cover of Outdoor Photography magazine.
At the time, all I could afford was a basic Canon Digital rebel kit and this “walking wonder” spent the weekend sneering at my “toy camera kit” and told me I had no place in his workshop with such cheap equipment.
Rather than help me find ways to overcome the limitations of it, he refused to spend even 5 minutes helping me and this could have been an embittering experience. Instead, on the way home on Sunday morning, I stopped in Dillsboro, SC and took a photo in the fog of a steam train with that “cheap toy”. I’ve sold over $2,000 worth of copies of that photo since.
The point? Even some of the “big boys” can have feet of clay and a heart of coal. Try to gauge their willingness to be fair when you approach even them for help. I’m just sayin’.
EXACTLY! Scott you are so right. But can I add something? I know it’s good to have someone comment on your work and critique you and all, BUT, and this is a big BUT, why do we feel that we can’t be good enough to be confident in our work. So some joe blow says your work isn’t good, SO WHAT. They way I see it, from my point of view, I’m not perfect. Some of my photos are junk, some of them aren’t. I’m sure even you have had shots that didn’t even make it onto your hardrive? We shouldn’t focus on the “right and wrong” that people point out in our photos. Just becuase it appears “wrong” it might be what we intended all along.
To this lady with the wedding photos, honey don’t let it get to you. If everyone took everyones word on what they do, we’d get nowhere!
Crystal
@Rob anyone can have a bad day but your advice is accurate. You should check the willingness of someone to give you a fair and honest critique. My thesis though isn’t related to whether or not you will always be treated fairly. It’s more closely related to how you should value (or not) comments from people who have no credibility or authority.
A portfolio review should always emphasize the positive and there is ALWAYS something positive and build on the negative as a learning experience. I get especially riled when some hot shot destroys the work of a photographer who has paid to have their work reviewed. When a tearful photographer came to me for a review minutes after leaving such a jerk well over 20 years ago, I vowed to NEVER do that to anyone.
Authority and credibility; What I’m reading here is you think that if a photographer is “famous”, they have authority and credibility. Only one problem with that, Scott: Not all of us have access to folks like Art Wolfe or Steve McCurry. Hell, I *KNOW* Michael Frye, and I can’t get him to critique my work!
However, I do have access to Buck Forester on Flickr, and Marc Adamus on the Fred Miranda forums; Both of whom have given me some fine feedback on my work. Both times it was unasked-for, besides.
I’ve got a bunch of folks online that I’ve come to trust to give me constructive criticism, and here is how I cultivated my relationships with them:
1. Found folks whose work I admired.
2. Asked them for input on my work–but here’s the kicker: I offered images where I already knew what’s wrong in them to see if they would bring up those problems. In short, do a calibration on their perception of your work.
3. Paid attention when they brought up things I missed, remembering I already admired their work, and I have a lot to learn from them.
Famous? *shrug* Not all of us schmucks with cameras and aspirations to the cover of National Geographic have the chance to put a print in front of our favorite pro ‘togs and ask for feedback.
Look, I have stated that I want to be a photographer’s photographer. If I can get a good reaction over one of my images from someone I admire, it’s a plus. But hey, if my neighbors hand over cash for my prints, it’s all good too.
As for anonymity, what does it matter? If they do good work, if they give good feedback, I don’t give a damn if they call themselves Buck Forester, BeerGuy, or by their legal name.
In closing, getting feedback is a good way to learn what is and isn’t generally considered good photography. By extension, you gotta know what the rules are before you break them, and if you are going to break the rules, break them good and hard.
Edie
Edie
@Edie like I said I knew some of the “cool kids” would rip me for this and I frankly don’t mind. You misstated many of my points though which is by the way – a sure sign you’re on the wrong side of an argument. I never once said the word famous. Please re-read the post for better comprehension.
I picked my words carefully. I didn’t say famous. I said what I meant. Credible. So you can try to misdirect in favor of your position but sorry, I won’t let you get away with it
And funny how you mentioned a bunch of people who are not “famous” but whom I do in fact know and respect such as Fred Miranda. I would certainly count them as credible. So I just emptied your clip on that point as well.
One of the points I made was that if you are hearing from someone’s portfolio that you don’t admire forget it. By extension, I would assume you understand that I think the opposite is true so that’s one point we agree on.
I already explained why anonymity matters. If you aren’t willing to stand up for what you say you are a coward. I can’t think of anyone who considers the feedback of a coward valuable.
You completely ignored the fact that most of the anonymous feedback is purely mean-spirited. Should I assume you have no sympathy or care for your fellow photographers who are hurt by it? If so – that’s pretty heartless and a glaring omission from your comment.
Thanks for sharing the cool kids point of view.
@Edie I forgot to add one thing. I went to your blog and noticed you are a self-declared amateur. The point of this blog is to reach out to photographers who want to go pro. Accordingly, all the advice given here is written with that bias. If I were an amateur I’d still likely avoid some of the mean-spirited forums I see out there, but I’d be less concerned about some of the issues presented in the post.
There’s really nothing argued here at all when all this article serves to prove is the fact that it’s all arguable: what constitutes a solid body of work, a sensible critique or a worthy critic.
In the end, all we’ll ever do is sort what we find useful (certainly not truthful) from all of the opinions offered and discard the rest.
Take it another step further: if one were to follow the suggested method of determining (the supposed) validity of a critique offered by assessing the (supposed) quality of said critics own work then all that’s taken place is an exercise in insular nonsense. A mere feedback loop where nothing useful is neither added nor communicated nor interpreted.
(It saddens me that the process of creating is so routinely discounted in being a photographer. All of those things that come along with creating that don’t have anything to do with tripping the shutter: sitting on a body of work until deeper meanings resonate, watching a work transform before you not because it’s suddenly become better or worse but the process of creating it and of letting it breathe and speak to you changed you.
It’s merely my opinion but the process of becoming one with your work, of creating through your experiences and thusly allowing the subsequent images to exist as an extension of yourself – that’s what it is not to just be a photographer but to be an artist. And once you’re there, none of this arguable nonsense means that much to you.)
And let’s also not forget that so long as you’re operating with the intention of making images for EVERYONE to look at then the opinions and reactions to your work from every single person that comes across it should certainly count for something.
You know, there’s a reason artists exhibitions open to the public.
Cheers.
And also, I’m of the opinion that photography as a whole is long overdue for a move beyond the notion of good and bad works. When you’re operating in a field that’s been so thoroughly explored – where there’s no shortage of images or photographers, all you can really aspire to is the creation of something that people care enough to look at and hopefully look at more than once.
All else is blah.
Cheers again.
@Arion remembering that AGAIN the context of this blog and this post is for professional and aspiring professional photographers… there’s a difference between an art critique and a professional critique. And we’re not talking about letting people see your work. We’re talking about people giving you pointers. Sorry but I am not interested in pointers from people who don’t know photography. They can tell me if they like a picture or not and I can decide if I care or not what they think, but that’s in no way shape or form a critique within the meaning and context of this post.
By the way I don’t make images for EVERYONE. That’s a loooooosing proposition. I make images for my target market. There’s a really, really big difference.
I use a handle on the web. I always will. There are lots of reasons. Having a nome de guerre is not license to be mean or to be arrogant.
And the use of “real names” means nothing. The vast majority of people whom I observe using their “real” names range from snide and sarcastic to super mean, negative, obnoxious, and arrogant in their power tripping.
The real issue is the need to feel one has power … vs the need to be encouraged and enlightened.
Those who believe power is being at the top of the mountain, will always kick stones and throw dirt if anyone even approaches the base of their mole hill. After all it’s a very short distance to the top of their power base.
But, for some reason, people are willing to believe the mole hill is really a mountain and that it’s worth the fight to get to the top of it … or even have a grain of dirt flung their way from it. (I tend to hope this is from a lack of research and not a cult member activity.)
Then there are people who believe power is in the gleam of joy in their students’ eyes when the “lights come on.” And then, they step out of the way and say “Go for the top, I’m not really there, yet.”
This is a much quieter relationship between power and encouragement. One often without fanfare, often without glory. One that might have 15 min of fame. It is even ignored by a great many potential students.
And yet it can change the world. And, yes, it can happen on forums.
Pick your power point and pick your power source wisely.
As to brain surgery and art … I really hope that we are discussing the difference between precise art and modern art. I want a precision artist for a brain surgeon. When I critique, I want the eye of a modern art enthusiast who is has knowledge of the principles of art design and art psychology.
And *if* one should suddenly find some of my art and want to offer advice … wonderful. Personally, I am a little different breed. First, I am willing to weigh what I know against what you know and decide if you’re on a mtn or a mole hill. Second, my pages (wherever they are) are my home. If a person gets ugly and makes me and/or my guests uncomfortable, he will not remain in my home. Period.
But please please please please say more than “nice pic” or “wow”. please.
have fun enjoy
I don’t get it. This is a blog for professional photographers and all these amateurs are taking this off topic in my opinion. And what’s with all the long-winded comments? Scott I personally wish you’d moderate this a little tighter. I come to this blog to read about becoming a professional photographer. I want to hear what the pros think. Sorry for my own little rant. And by the way, not that it matters probably but I do agree with you on the anonymous thing. I have felt that way for a long time. I don’t care what anonymous commenters think.
@Tom all are welcome here. I do try to remind people of the context and context is something that is sorely missing from today’s commentary on just about any subject so it is sometimes an uphill battle. Stick with us. We’re still finding our way.
@MarillaAnne
I edited your comment because parts of it don’t meet our comment guidelines. I allowed the rest of it because I think the second half of your comment has value for others to consider. I completely disagree with everything you said on the real name thing which I am sure you gather. Thanks for stopping by.
Thanks for writing this Scott. I have always felt the same way, but didn’t have the courage to say it as plainly as you did. I am about your age and where I grew up, a person who wouldn’t stand behind their word was scorned. I serve as a juror for our local art gallery. I understand how difficult it is to give people constructive criticism. The younger people I meet seem to have a problem being constructive, but they seem to have no problem being critics of nearly everything. Thanks again for putting into words what I think many of us were feeling.
[...] With a hat tip to Seth Godin, this post sort of piggy backs on yesterday’s post about Feedback. [...]
Scott:
To follow up, the point I failed to make was that I was looking to WC, the pro, to provide me with feedback and insight into the vision I was trying to create or define and he failed badly.
Ironically, after seeing them at another venue a few weeks later, it was another professional (David Plowden) who encouraged me to publish those steam locomotive photos that turned the corner for me to decide to try to go professional.
While I understand your sentiment vis a vis harsh, mean spirited ‘critique’ I disagree that aspiring professionals should insulate themselves from it completely. The fact is, as a professional, you will be subject to harsh commentary from agents, potential clients and customers. If aspiring professionals are so thin skinned as to be unable to deal with an anonymous internet ‘critic’ then how well will they be able to deal with a potential client slamming their portfolio.
I learned a great deal about having confidence in my own work in the face of tough critism by dealing first with tough Internet critique. I learned about judging the value of critique, ‘anonymous’ or otherwise, based on the work of the source.
You say you’re interested in the opinion of your target market. But ,unless my target audience is professional photographers, there’s a good chance that seeking their opinion will be just an invalid as seeking that of an anonymous Internet source whose work i respect.
There are many reasons ro remain ‘anonymous’ on the internet. Yes, some do it to take out their real world frustrations. Yes, some people are mean for the sake of being mean. But some people just do it to keep their private life private. I know professionals and advanced amatuers who make as much money with their cameras as aspiring pros who like to keep their professional Internet presence distinct from their more personal ‘flickr’ photostream.
In the end, there are reasons to be careful about critique from strangers on the Internet. There are different reasons to be careful about critique from ‘pros’.
To discount all Internet critique, or even all anonymous Internet critique, out offhand is to possibly miss out on one of the largest and most accessible schools anywhere. Taken in context, the Internet offers an ability to grow faster as a photographer. It’s a tool heretofore unavailable to prior generations of aspiring pros. It’s possible to learn more and receive more feedback in a shorter time than ever before. That also means that there’s a greater responsibility for the student to consider the source.
@Lee you improperly stated that I seek the critique of my target audience. I do not. I seek the critique of those who have standing and credibility. I understand that the younger you are, the more likely you are to think that anonymous comments are okay since that is what you grew up with. You haven’t said anything that convinces me otherwise. I still believe, as do a majority of the commenters here, that an anonymous comment is a cowardly comment lacking context.
Why you are putting words in my mouth? I never said you have to get critiques from pros. Why do you feel the need to mis-represent me on this issue? I said you need to get critiques from people who have standing and credibility. I never said pros or famous people or anything else.
You also mis-represent me when you say that I am suggesting you discount all Internet critique. I simply never said that.
Perhaps the disconnect here for you is that you simply didn’t read my post carefully enough.
I agree that you can learn a whole bunch via the Internet, just not from some anonymous coward who won’t stand up for what they believe while needlessly and mindlessly attacking everything that someone else does because they think it makes then cool.
In the last hour I’ve had to moderate out about 10 comments that no doubt came from the very anonymous trolls who gather in some of the mean-spirited photo forums. They don’t like the fact that I spoke out against them. But this place isn’t for them. We have a strong comments policy which I will enforce. Since the time I have to devote to this topic is limited, and since I think we have a fair representation here of both sides of the argument, I’m going to close this thread so we can move on to newer things. Thanks for participating.